What's With All These Kinky, Pagan Bisexuals?

[Bi_Druid]

Interesting article.

I have a little nag, as such, about being labelled part of an "outcast" group, being Pagan myself, and being a friend of Role-Players, Pagans, Goths, Metal-Heads, etc. I understand why you used this term of 'outcast', but I don't strictly agree with it. Perhaps 'niche' would have been a more agreeable one, or some such.

Also, I class myself as always having been Pagan, in it's broadest use of the term. And I class myself as having always been Bi, just that I never realized this until later in life (although my parents always 'knew', even before I did, in that divine way parent always do). I have never seen the two as intrinsically entwined as your article appears to suggest.
I am just me, and always was, and shall always be so.
I appreciate that we are now living in a more accepting world than, say, a mere generation or two ago, and I consider myself and my generation greatly fortunate for such.

But as regards being Pagan and Bi as having to go hand in hand, is a bit off. Many of my pagan friends are happily and confirmedly straight, and a few gay/lesbian. In fact, I'm the ONLY Bi-identified pagan I personally know of. If anything, I was the quirky odd one out amongst the group. Much goes the same for many of the Goths, Grungers, Role Players, Metal-Heads, etc who I have made acquaintance with have all proved, in their own ways, although still open-minded and accepting, have predominated with Mono-sexuals (Straights or Gay/lesbians).

If only what your article seems to suggest was as true this side of the pond.

The only truly Bi people I've come across other than my self in actual life (i.e, out side of the Internet aether) are much like me, identifying themselves as individuals; happily befriending with anyone who's a decent person, regardless of their personal kinks or niches. Be they whatever faith or ideology or taste or fashion sense or whatever, has proved somewhat regardless of us wanting to know the person for who s/he are inside. The rest is but technicalities.

[csrakate]

The author of this horrible excuse for "writing" is ugly as hell and I'd rather look at a pile of dog shit.

Got a mirror handy?

[jamieknyc]

Got a mirror handy?

Bad girl, feeding the troll! I will have to give you a spanking.

[rissababynta]

Got a mirror handy?

oh, you're a quick one lmao!

[vittoria]

Got a mirror handy?

I'm Pleased!

[TheBrat74]

*yawn*

I stand corrected. (Shall I say "you win"? because I suspect that is what you are seeking, and rather than have to discuss this one more moment, are you happy if I just say "uncle"?) LMAO.

Honestly, I can't keep track of all of the new age wiccan things you folks are into and who founded what within the last 80 years. It's like keeping up with Britney Spears and K-whatever. Tedious, mindless, and completely without merit or substance.

Perhaps now you will allow this thread to return to the point of the message - though I strongly doubt it - lol.

Please be respectful of other religions even if you dont agree with them. Please keep in mind that ALL religions started off at the beginning and were new or young at one point. it doesnt make them ANY less valid.

I am Wiccan. I am a witch. I think you will find most wiccans are witches, but NOT all witches are wiccans.

there are some wiccans who are very new agy, and others who are deeply devoted and serious about their beliefs, crafts and practice.

Just to note: I am NOT Gardenarian-I am an eclectic solitary wiccan. And a pagan is defined as someone who does not follow the major religions. its original meaning was country dweller.

[TheBrat74]

i am a bi pagan woman and my husband is a bi pagan man and i took offense to alot of the things in your article and it is my oppinion that you absolutely do not know what you are talking about when it comes to wicca. i have never felt like an "outcast" and do not appreciate being categorised by you or stereotyped and i don't think anyone i know would appreciate it either. i was raised christian, but i knew from an early age that conventional religion is not all there is and is not the whole truth. i think it is completely ignorant for anyone in any religion to judge anyone else because of their beliefs or sexual orientation. the reason there are so many diverse "outcasts" in wicca is because we are a nature based religion that accepts everyone for who they are and we do not judge any one for sexual preference or personal beliefs, unlike other religions that judge you if you don't believe what they want you to or what they think you should. the Bible says we all have free will and if practicing the one basic power that everyone possesses makes one an "outcast", then i feel sorry for those who don't and to me they are the real outcasts. we are entitled to our oppinions and beliefs, but ifeel if you are going to speak about a particular group of people or about a particular subject that you should atleast be educated enough on the topic to give a well informed oppinion and not just ignorant uninformed oppinions!

Just so you know, not all Wiccans or Witches for that matter are accepting and open minded. There are close minded people in EVERY religion.

[mohrade]

i was raised in the church of christ and knew from a young age that i like both boys and girls, mentally, physically and spiritually. it wasnt until i was a late teen that i began to explore pagan and spiritualist communities, maybe i was lucky in the fact that i was accepted by the church i was raised in, as well as pagan community, maybe it was because of my utter acceptance of the idea that this is who i am , take me or leave me, either way ill survive. i have noticed, more recently, that younger girls are claiming bisexuality, but seem to be just playing around, because they are taught that it is cool. that in itself could me dangerous simply because of how impressionable these girls are and how manipulative some young men are, not wanting a girl unless they will be with another girl in the attempt to achieve the alleged ultimate fantasy.

[PhoenixRising35]

My own version of chicken vs. egg...

I was never a member of any of these "outcast" groups until after I identified as bisexual. I sought them out as a place to find dates once I realized I would like to date both men and women.

I am trying, but can not for the life of me, think of the reason I knew I would find other bisexuals there. I certainly was not thinking "these groups are open minded". It was a more primal, selfish reason for seeking the groups out. I was like the proverbial frat boy going to a party to pick up on chicks.

I would like to think I was more cerebral. I wish it was me "challenging the monotheistic ideal of North American Judeo-Christian notions of right and wrong". But in all honesty I just wanted to get some, and went to these groups to find it.

So, for me, bisexuality came first. Then kinky polyamorus role playing Wicca sci-fi in the SCA came second.

I really like how you finished off this post. I did do role-playing, sci-fi/ fantasy long before I even could understand my sexuality and now I just like to say that since I have broken many taboos already, why not just see how far down the rabbit hole goes. Also, I know that in my search for acceptance, one of the best places that I found (barring some people who took my inventory one too many times) was the Wiccan community. Myself, I tend to believe in a more shamanistic belief, but my prayers and energy in sending to Hecate and Dionysus help me on a daily basis as well to keep my mind open to all branches of spirituality. Still, I find close-mindedness in society wherever reprehensible since it takes the judgment out of a Higher Power's hands and gives it to limited human intelligence. I don't say this to anyone here, obviously, but when people judge others it makes me very irritated to say the least.

I also appreciate the OP for putting together a very good post and am glad that I am a part of this community (found through a yahoo group) because it helps me to find affirmation with people like me (or even slightly different) to keep accepting myself no matter what my choices for partners or bedroom habits are. Hugs for taking the time to post this and share your views with us.

[AlannahBabalon156]

hence I don't argue with people lol but, you make one big mistake...
gerald gardener was the creator of modern wicca, NOT edward gardener

the writings of aleister crowley form the basis of much of modern wicca....aleister wrote the book * high magics aid * in 1946.... much of which would feature later on in modern wicca
aleister crowley is better known as the founder of the church of satan

gerald gardener was taught the foundations of what was to become modern wicca, when he joined a witchcraft coven in 1939 under aleister crowley

in 1951 gardener started his own coven....in 1954 he wrote the book * witchcraft today * and in 1959, wrote * the meaning of witchcraft *

gardnerian wicca has direct roots to the masonic movement, druidism, witchcraft, shamanism and other pagan factions....possibly including satanism

Just want to correct a few things here if I may Long Duck Dong, hope you dont mind

Crowley didn't write High Magicks Aid, that was Gerald Gardner.

Anton Lavey was the founder of the Church of Satan (1967) not Crowley.

Gardner didn't join Crowley's witchcraft coven (Crowley wasn't a witch, he was a ceremonial magickian), although Gardner was a short term member of the O.T.O

Forgive my pedanticism (not being rude just straightening a few things out here), Im a magickian myself and a member of the OTO hence Im acquainted with Crowley and the history of the occult.

[cuninglingwist]

All you so called know it all wiccans and pagans need to study history,

pagans were mainly farmers who worshiped fertility the four seasons and nature and its gods and godesses.
Bisexuality among pagan women was natual and normal, when the men were gone for weeks or months it was normal to give each other (sexual) comfort.
if a husband was killed and never came back she and her kids were taken in as a second wife where the kids became his kids.

the wiccan was a spiritual leader but also the worlds first phamasist with herbal remidies past down from generations, and they knew the art of fixing broken limbs.

It was the jelousy of christian religion that turned against the wiccan and pagans as more people started to attend wiccan gatherings and taking herbs that cured, the christians only offered prayer, no preyers were ever answered, people died in agony and disese, and the church lost its flock and its money.
It was the evil cathlic church that invented the words "witches" incest, evil, SIN, the devil, evil spells, magic,heratic, infidel, the none believers, the church blamed them for every bad thing they couldent explain and burnt thousands of wiccan/pagans alive thoughout england and europe, this fear brought most back to the church with their money.

todays moden witches, goths, with their dark spells and wichcraft is money generating bullshit, its everything the wiccans and pagans were not, but more what the Evil cathlic church wanted and portrade pagans and wiccans to be.

modern day witches are evil Cathlics looking for your money through fear..But the cathlic church has always been about forced religion through fear, where procreation and sex is SIN..

[boca.openminded]

let me start by saying I did not read the full article nor all of the posts.. Honestly, it was all too long...lol

but, I do have a comment on Pagan Bisexuals. The first pagan person I met was actually a bisexual. She is the reason why today I am very open minded or bi curious (whatever label you want to put on it). We dated for a few years and she taught me alot of things (not all sexual). To name a few are to be more open minded, to try anything once (if I didn't like it then dont do it again but at least you try), take risks, and to explore just to name a few. The one thing that she constantly talked about is the energy that you produce is the energy that you will attract.

Pagans are very earthy / simple people. The whole religion is based on earth and its energy. They are very open minded. I do believe that being pagan you do let all of your walls down and believe in being free and nurturing.

Think about it for a minute. Without the walls in todays society how sexually free we would be. For example we constantly hear about men that do not want not wanting to explore certain sexual acts because it would construe them as being gay.

I do not know if this is off the topic or not but from the pagans I have talked to I'd say that about 80% are bi...

[rissababynta]

I do not know if this is off the topic or not but from the pagans I have talked to I'd say that about 80% are bi...

yeah, i know many many pagans and only one is straight but not disgusted by the idea or anything. I'm not surprised...us pagans are always striving for balance

[CoupleinBama8184]

bi female pagan and the group i am in i am the only bi person there so i would have loved to have seen the group she was talking about lmao

[silberwolf1960]

bi-pagen here to. Love the freedom it gives.

[Intimate_Light]

I'm not a Pagan, but had a Pagan room-mate and past aquaintances and so I am fairly familiar with its essence. As I recall, the central tenet (or Pagan Golden Rule) goes something like this:

"Do what you will, but do no harm (onto others or yourself)."

There are those inside or outside of that tradition that ignore it fit their own biases. Because every creed or spiritual path has its extremists, and there are con artists that use anything for selfish superficial gains, i.e. kinky hype/marketing/etc.

Nuttin' new in either case.

That sexual orientation becomes prey to this isn't surprising.
Ignore the b.s. and live your own integrity.

[~POET~]

with all due respect, women don't have it "easy"...it may be easier in society for us, but once a man or woman comes to realize that it matters not what society thinks of us, we are free...it's hard for us all...where i'm from i'm considered an old maid...i'm 26 years old and i've never been married, i have no kids...they ask me why...now, take the stress of this and combine it with the stress of being pagan and bi....MUCH HARDER...

but, being bi, gothic, pagan...and happy...is something i am...i'm not "this way" because it fits the norm or the stereotype of this and that...it is who i am...

there is no place in any tradition that i've heard of that looks down on bi men or women...we are all accepted for our differences because that's what makes us work as a community...we would suck if we were all the same...coming from my POV, knowing many women and men who are pagan...the majority of us are not bi...bi-friendly perhaps...we know how it is to be lashed out at for our "satanic ways" and our "evilness"...pretty much the outlook had by homophobics...we fear things we don't understand...

all of us are individuals...we are all different...there is no where written that you have to be bi to be a pagan...you don't have to, but you're less afraid to take that particular title...you're more open to it because the fear of rejection and public denouncement...those of us who have had to live with the fear of it all know what i mean...how can something so beautiful be so wrong...

my point is...and i don't mean to ramble...just because the stereotype says so doesn't make it so...

[TJ_Atl]

Specifically, people in these outcast groups have often challenged and then rejected the monotheistic ideal of North American judeo-christian notions of right and wrong. Most of them have also rejected traditional religion. One of the strongest moralistic messages they reject is that of sex as sin.

Two things I would address in this paragraph:

1) Most who reject biblically based spirituality do not actually challenge the "ideal" as you suggest. They instead take for granted that the ideal is indeed biblically based.

They assume that because so many people say that the bible says something, that this must be what the bible says. Then they reject both the people and the bible.

The fact is that the few passages from the bible which many use to condemn homosexuality as sin, do not actually support their prejudice.

You will notice that the ones who are not just repeating things someone else has told them, but who actually try to make convincing arguments, rely heavily on non-biblical texts to support their distortions of the bible.

For example, there is a passage in 1 Corinthians where several types of sinners are listed. The original King James Version of the Bible specifies one of those as the "effeminate". The New King James Version says "homosexuals".

However, there is a footnote. The term they have now decided to translate as "homosexuals" actually refers to catamites. Catamites are boys who have sex with adult men!

The obvious challenge is, why have they translated this term as homosexual when the more obvious sinner would be pedophile? It is difficult for a Christian who is not prejudiced against GLBT people to believe that the Bible would concern itself with the personal relationships of consenting same-sex adults but have nothing to say about pedophilia.

By the way, you'll notice that there is no reference to lesbians at all. In fact, I cannot find a reference in the Old Testament that even comes close to discussing lesbianism. The passages that do seem to mention them along with gay men, are actually condemnations of "unnatural" pagan worship services that appear to have more to do with straight people, or all people.


2) Sex as sin is rarely confronted by Judeo-Christians in the secular, political realm, as they do homosexuality. One almost gets the impression that opposite-sex sin is AOK.

For example, in order to be consistent, my fellow Christians who think that they know what the term "unnatural" refers to in those infamous passages, and who want to ban marriage for same-sex couples, must also ban marriage for opposite-sex couples, if those couples participate in the same "unnatural" act that many gay men participate in. Don't they?


What I am trying to say is, as a bi-sexual man, I do not have to abandon biblical spirituality. I prefer to challenge and reject the peer pressure which leads to prejudice.

[Hazzardous]

I'm Asatru, which is a reconstructionist religion based on the religion of the ancient Norse. I'm the only one I know of that's bisexual, actually. Sadly, the religion is itself the subject of lots of prejudice from outside because of the fact that Hitler attempted (and failed) to hijack the religious symbols of the old Norse during WWII in an attempt to get the local peoples to support him. He only succeeded in making them angry, but more recently, certain neo-Nazi groups have attempted to associate themselves with the Asatru religion (much to the disgust of every Asatru I've ever met).

So, yeah...

[stroker530]

I think you'll find a lot of bisexual people in the Neo-Pagan community because at it's core, paganism honors the duality of God AND Goddess. Male and Female are very much at play as core concepts of divinity, hence, its adherents tend to be more open to exploring both the male and female sides of their sexuality.

I am a Neo-Pagan and I'm Bi. Personally, I enjoy exploring the energies of both males and females. Both are unique and VERY enjoyable!!!

Blessings.

[RAZ696]

I totaly agree that males are so beaten in with the no same sex affection thing. A friend and I had a conversation about it afew months back.
My thinking is that there's alot more bi males out there but they don't want to compromise thier lumberjack/pirate/footballer male type image , if you get what I mean.

totally agreed!

[Karasel]

Hm... Ever since I was a little girl I have been a role-player, gamer and into sci-fi. I used to be Wicca (but now Agnostic)... And I've always been bi..

This explains everything!!!

LOL.

This article is interesting, to say the least.

Fun read.

[sephirothtx]

excuse me if i didn't read all hundreds of the posts

i've been an avid online religious political debater for a while now

some background im x-christian that turned atheist, dabbled with some satanists, then confirmed my ahtiesm, atheism isn't the "beleif there is no god"
it is the lack of any beleif for the observance of the scientifically proven and the truth, atheist is literally a abbreviation for AntiTheist

Now in my studies i haven oticed one thing, anti-homosexuality bigotry is focused mainly on those "newer" religions known as the RHP or Right Hand Path religions.

This includes all forms of christianity, Judiasms, and Islam, as well as any sect of religion broken and mixed from these.

The majority of "ancient/pagan" religions either has no involvment in sexual preferences or promotes the act of homosexuality one way or another.
In other words there is no bigotry in the laws of the religion that forbids any kind of homosexual action, and in some religions getting naked and having orgy's was part of the practice of the religion and not seen as a sexual deviancy.

The oddest thing is, the original RHP religion, Greece "mythology" from which all RHP religions evolved from the most, has no outspoken preference against gay people and it is known by recordings that bisexuality was avidly practiced by the ancient greek people.

[Vallin]

In for a penny, in for a pound. We are what Dr. Helen Fisher ('Why Him, Why Her?') calls "Explorers"

[Tony Max]

Liked this and I think it's a simple matter of when you accept you are bisexual there is automatic rejection by the religions. Yet, discovering one's sexuality is a spiritual path. To retain a spiritual identity and be bisexual can only lead to occultism, the pagan way. Maybe it works the other way too?

I discovered my pagan identity about twelve years ago, well after my sexuality. It provides me with comfort and joy. My paganism leans towards Druidism.

My daughter is a Wiccan. I think women go for Wicca in a big way, more than men?

My Grandfather was Druid and it was kept secret from me. I think the family were ashamed of his values. He was pacifist and served as an ambulance officer in France in the first world war.

I don't think we are kinky. I think we are kind people getting on as best we can in a cruel world.

[Randypan]

Just so you know, not all Wiccans or Witches for that matter are accepting and open minded. There are close minded people in EVERY religion.

I am a Bi Pagan, I was raised by an atheist mother and Baptist father. I have traveled far and met many different pagan groups as well as ceremonial, chaos and satanic magi. I have found that groups who are ensconced in a particular tradition that has been around for awhile, tend to have more closed minds, Gardnarians and Dianics, as well as followers of the Golden Dawn and Kabbalah, just to name a few. I have also come across groups in which if you are not bi, you were an outcast. It seems the looser the organization, the more open minded they are.

[BiDaveDtown]

Just so you know, not all Wiccans or Witches for that matter are accepting and open minded. There are close minded people in EVERY religion.

Yup even Pagans and Wiccans can be very close minded, big into ritual and loving their dogma.

[jb32256x]

I thought about being pagan, but if I can not tolerate one god how will I ever tolerate many?

[matutum]

I agree completely that the concept of sex being sinful is just a social/religeous construct designed for control, and that rejecting that idea is the path to freedom no matter what your kink.

What happens their is no control people and their sexual habits???/How many dynasties have colapsed from bad sexual practices??? Lots..

[*pan*]

i DONT KNOW.

MABY THEY ARE ALL ALIENS