The face of the enemy

[shameless agitator]

brace yourselves and watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnsovCdiwSM
If you're not really terrified yet, here's the site for the camp http://kidsinministry.com/Current.PastEvents/WavesOfGlory.html

This movie is touring the country. I'm going to go see it in Seattle on 10-5 if anybody in the area wants to join me drop me a line. We can make it a group outing.

[Azrael]

The kid with the mullet was a nice touch :eek:

[ScifiBiJen]

Hmmmm. I'm not gonna cast my judgement so quickly. Believe it or not, there ARE some Christians that aren't out to kill us all. Now, the fact that they're focusing only on younger kids isn't usually a good sign ("Get 'em young, before they can form their own opinions!") but unless this movie says something explicitly directed to me, I'm happy to ignore its existence.

Also I really don't think this movie is going to be seen by anyone besides those who are 1. already 100% with their message 2.just going to be disgusted / for some laughs.

I mean between the kid with the mullet, some of those reviews ("A lightning rod." ...sounds like critic-ese for "crazy people magnet") and the kids seizuring with the power of the spirit..... I don't think this film is going to be taken very seriously by most of the rest of the world.

I don't have enough time in the world to get angry at everything other people do.

[JrzGuy3]

When I was a freshman, a comedian came to my school. He was good. I liked this:

"So once I was doing a show for a college up in Maine. They apparently sent the school's one van to pick me up from the airport and there was some sphomore girl driving it. We had a little smalltalk (the weather, my flight, her major, etc) before the silence set in. Then, out of nowhere she asks, 'Do you know what Taco Bell is?'

So I say, 'Huh?'

'Do you know what Taco Bell is? My Mom said it's regional and other parts of the country don't have it and don't know what tacos are.'

At that point I wanted to say, 'Well the next time you see your Mom, you should slap her in the face because she's making you look like an idiot in front of strangers.'"

The moral of the story is that while I think that this Jesus Camp is a load of crock, I think that would be a majority opinion. This would get support in the South, but I think the country as a whole tends to be aware that many Southerners are bass ackwards hicks and take their opinions with an appropriate grain of salt. The Midwest is also pretty Christian, but the Midwest also tends to be more real Christian than the Jesus freaks south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Addendum: I'm gonna be one proud parent the day I get a call to pick up a son/daughter from school for punching a kid who told him/her "Jesus loves me/this I know/'cause the Bible/tells me so."

[shameless agitator]

I see where you're coming from with this, but I would argue that blowing these people off because they're obviously nut jobs is dangerous. That's how we've wound up with the theocracy that the U.S. has become. Nobody took Jay Dobson seriously when he was first getting started because we thought everybody would see what a lunatic he was & as a result focus on the family is one of the most powerful organizations in the country. As H.L. Menken once said "Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of the american public"

[anne27]

..... This would get support in the South, but I think the country as a whole tends to be aware that many Southerners are bass ackwards hicks and take their opinions with an appropriate grain of salt. The Midwest is also pretty Christian, but the Midwest also tends to be more real Christian than the Jesus freaks south of the Mason-Dixon line.


I have to take acception with that broad generalization :( . While I wasn't born here, I have lived in the South for the last 12 years and call it home. I know a lot of very intelligent, passonate liberals from these parts. We're not all 'bass ackwards hicks'. Not even close.

[biandu]

Okay that movie scared the shit out of me.. on so many different levels..

omfg! I've seen other sources like this.. books, coloring books, board games, animated movies targeting kids, etc.

but fuck.. just the intensity of that movie.. and the overwhelming emotion that is projected onto and from the kids in that movie..was terrifying.

if i was in the middle of all that screaming..and constant preaching.. my head would be spinning..

i do believe that is a form of brainwashing, yes?

military groups use it all the time! including our good ole usa military. IT is to make the intended army compliant, which is needed in an army.


It reminds me so much of radical thinking... get the kids.. in line.. get the kids in their minds.. get the kids... get the belief ingrained in them... and they will fight and die... for their beliefs!

training the kids.. as an army.. for the "Our way or No way!" campaign, resembles to me.. White Supremist Youth Programs, [by the way.. were they all white kids in that video? hmmm i'll have to take a look again!]

and of course all countries have their own Radicals.. but there have been extreme Militias.. that i know of.. African, Middle East, Asian and South American militias [where they have been known to kidnap kids as young 4 and 5 to train them in their army!]


wow. Our country's sitting on its own bomb, and it's wrapped in Jesus Slogans.

[Just_Gem]

This would get support in the South, but I think the country as a whole tends to be aware that many Southerners are bass ackwards hicks and take their opinions with an appropriate grain of salt. The Midwest is also pretty Christian, but the Midwest also tends to be more real Christian than the Jesus freaks south of the Mason-Dixon line.



Spoken like a true bigot that doesn't really know those he/she is speaking about, just perpetuating a myth because it's there rather that taking the time to find out for oneself what we in the south are really like. To me that's as bad as those so-called "Christians" that I see every day that think they are somehow better than everyone else just because of their faith. There are "Jesus Freaks" (as you call them) everywhere not just here in the south, and some of the worst I've met are actually north of the Mason-Dixon line.

:2cents:
Gem

[12voltman59]

Those kinds of camps have been around for a very long time-but the difference today is that they are part of a very large, well funded, highly technological machine that provides coordinated multi-media materials via satelite and the Internet to churches and their affiliated camps all over the world.

Before the explosion of technology--things in these places were pretty simple--now they are part of an well oiled and sophisticated machine.

When I was still with my one newspaper--it was a weekly community paper--I would do periodic stories featuring different churches in our community.

The way I structured my stories was to detail how the respective churches came to be --a bit about the faiths from which they arose and such--I did not slant the stories to promote or praise these churches--I merely presented the facts about them.

Well-- I was pretty well popular with all of the local pastors and since I did treat the churches respectfully and fairly--I was well liked and was sought out to do stories on their churches.

While most of our churches were generally small ones--we did have at least two of those modern mega churches in the community and I did stories on them.

I never told anyone my views on religion and such--I just said that I was Catholic and such and things were left at that--since they trusted me as being at least an "OK" christian since I was Catholic--I was made aware of what I found to be some very interesting information--at least for me since I was not a member of such a congregation.

That is how I learned about the how the Christian right has this whole world of satelite and internet provided information that is prepackaged, coordinated and directed to their memberships with a degree of uniformity of message on any matter you can think of-that is why they are an effective force in getting out the vote----

They pick an issue--gay marriage for instance---material is developed then put out about the evils of such a thing to their affiliate churches all over the nation---then they get out the vote.

The two mega churches in that community were at that time- on two different feeder systems (I don't know about now) --but their messages are usually very similar..

The religious right is very well organized and they receive a coordinated message about what they need to do to make this world and especially America--"Right For God!"

These "Jesus Camps for Kids" are just but one part of bigger whole.

Obviously as Americans, these folks have a right to believe and worship as they so please--the thing is--they have their vision of things that they wish to put on the rest of us--

As I have jokingly said in other postings--"may God help us" but with these folks intent on making our country a "truly Christian nation" and the crazy radical Islamists intent on seeing their "true way" imposed on the world or death to the infidels who do not bow down and pray to Allah---

The future is going to be a very scary place I do believe--


"May God help us all or at least have mercy on our souls--LORD HEAR OUR PRAYER"

[ddbmma]

Religion is a subject I am uncomfortable speaking about with folks. Everyone has and is entitled their own beliefs. I can accept that. Further, I can agree to disagree with many on the subject of religion. I maintain an open mind, yet have one.

As a child I respected my mother's views. She did not have any of her children baptised in any religion. But, it was understood that as courtesy to her, you at least were educated upon Christianity until eighteen years of age.

The result of honor saw her children attend Mennonite Summer Bible school every year, until we reached proper age. She attends a Baptist church now, along with my step-father's mother. I guess Baptist and Mennonite have little differences between them.

When I turned twenty, I pulled service time. That broke an oath within the Mennonite faith. They still welcome me in the church, but sacrament and their alter is off limits. Mennonites are quite familial and socially oriented, though, making a welcome valued.

Their family based religion aside, I am still not part of the church. That does not bother me. What bothers me is some of the history of all religions, save perhaps Buddhism. Most religions have caused genocide in their entity's name.

Buddhism while not directly partaking of carnage has something I cannot accept. Buddhism teaches people there are no souls. This I find to cause suffering and negate all the good intentions of Buddhism. In short, it contradicts itself.

That is not a stab at Buddhism, though. Please understand I've found all religions given a little research and study, usually contradict themselves. How did this discovery come be?

Point blank, I've walked down many paths and explored the verges. I am the constant seeker that does not rest, but continues hungering for wisdom. There is a bright point amongst the ash of genocide and rage.

Here is what I've found to maintain a working semblance of Truth. There is no point to life but to live and let live. Treat others as you wish treated. Do not seek vengeance but remember what goes around, comes around. These ideals ought to be natural to everyone, and if not, teach them at a young age.

And one minor note about Socrates & Tolkien. Socrates says those who dine on hope will starve to death. Tolkien says hope is infinite and eternal. My statement is a question. With a feast of infinite and eternal hope, how can you starve?

But, what do we let our hopes aspire to bring? Tomorrow being a better day. Realize you are perfect even in imperfection, and so is the person next to you and so on. All we may do is strive to be closer to perfection.

Have paitence, because we shall one day reach the goal of peace. I think it may arrive sooner than anyone expects, but I am an idealist.

[tatooedpunk]

From a not from the us point of view
actually i dont know what to say
unbelieveable! religion is dangerous

[Herbwoman39]

This would get support in the South, but I think the country as a whole tends to be aware that many Southerners are bass ackwards hicks and take their opinions with an appropriate grain of salt.

JrzGuy, I've known you for a little while and I think I know you well enough to know that it isn't like you to say things that are percieved as bigoted.

I was born in the south and have lived in the south (Florida and Georgia) on and off for 14 years. I am an articulate, educated woman. I am neither ignorant nor backwards in my oppinions.

I think it would be prudent of you to consider apologising.

[LouiseBrookslover]

I'm from Kansas, hon, I've accepted long ago that as long as I live here I'm going to get lumped in with the creationism rednecks and the like. I can protest that I am liberal, that I live in eastern Kansas, in the only liberal town in Kansas, but it really does little to persuade people who aren't familiar with Kansas. My only way of dealing with it is to be a great advertisement for the "other type" of Kansan.

[mistymockingbird]

Not even sure what how to respond, to the movie and to the comments that have been posted.

Religion is a touchy subject for me. I'm from the south. I was raised in the Southern Baptist church. My brother grew up to become a missionary and a pastor. I've seen the stuff that was in that preview first hand. Somewhere along the way, I broke away from the church that my family attends, for a myriad of reasons. My spirituality remains to this day one of the most important facets of my life, but it has become something very private for me. I will discuss it when asked, but I don't generally bring it up.

I believe people have a right to worship as they see fit. However, I think that people should make an informed choice and not follow blindly the only thing they've ever been exposed to. I think we do our children and ourselves a disservice by not encouraging exposure to a wide variety of theology. Choose whatever religion you want, and follow it however you want, just allow me the freedom to do the same.

As for the rest...not that shocking that Southerners are still perceived as backwards hicks. Hell, I've said the same thing myself. I come from a town in Oklahoma that has three stop lights, I remember when 2 of them went in. I was raised on football, chicken fried steak, catfish, greens, watermelon, big family get togethers, summers at the lake. I still wear a cowboy hat and boots, drive a truck, love the rodeo, know the difference between a combine and a backhoe, and know when the planting and harvesting seasons are for my favorite veggies and fruits. All the boys in my town were expected to play football, all the girl aspired to be cheerleaders. Even after moving to WA, I proudly wrote to my grandparents the day I was voted captain of my HS cheerleading squad. I was also taught southern manners and etiquette. I still handwrite thank you notes, use cloth napkins, have a full set of china and crystal for entertaining, and know how to shop for appropriate wedding and baby gifts. I can see the good and the bad of the south. Every place has good and bad. But I'm proud of my southern roots. So much so, that no matter where my travels take me, I will be buried in my family plot in Oklahoma. The space is already reserved. lol

[JrzGuy3]

To me that's as bad as those so-called "Christians" that I see every day that think they are somehow better than everyone else just because of their faith. There are "Jesus Freaks" (as you call them) everywhere not just here in the south, and some of the worst I've met are actually north of the Mason-Dixon line.

I was born in the south and have lived in the south (Florida and Georgia) on and off for 14 years. I am an articulate, educated woman. I am neither ignorant nor backwards in my oppinions.

I don't disagree with either of you in the least. I never suggested that most, Southerners are backwards hicks or uneducated or uncivilized. To be honest, I'm a big fan of certain areas; the Appalachains are some of the most beautiful regions in the country, the South has inspired some of my favorite authors (including Harper Lee & Truman Capote) and a the region has some of the most amazing cities I've ever visited, from Charleston SC to Nashville TN.

I do not purport that most Southerners are hicks or Jesus freaks. Nor do I suggest that you monopolize them (you guys made those jumps on your own). From experience, parts of New Jersey are nearly as Conservative as can be. I do feel, however, that Christianity in many areas of the South has strayed from its true roots and intentions. I think many social issues in our country can be tracked to perversions of Christian teaching heavily emphsized by Evangelical/Baptist/Pentecostal circles (which, yes, are very prevalent in the south compared to the northeast/northwest) which result from a combination of lack of understanding of the origin of those teachings as well as a willful ignorance of the truth behind such misinformation.

Now getting off of what I think and on to what I said, I will stand behind my opinion that there are many people in the South who have taken Christianity off the deep end. I didn't think I needed to explicitly say I think many more haven't, but I will now. And yes, New Jersey has it's share of crazies too (ask about my first guy-crush). Please realize I'm not changing any of my original assertions; but please try to understand what I am saying and what I was not.


Spoken like a true bigotSmooches.
http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/2294/giraffekisswz3.jpg

[Reprob8]

The things I hear or see in print that use religion to foster hate pretty much have made me an agnostic.

[shameless agitator]

I passed agnostic years ago. Think I can still vaguely make it out in the rear view mirror.

[darren2458]

people that "hate" religion don't understand religion. and the people in that movie are not religious! they're fanatical, there's a difference.

people that "hate" christians are strange to me... because there are too many christians in too many forms to hate every single one of them. unless of course, you just lump everyone together... which has worked so well in the past... i'm sure the jews could attest to that.

christians are out to get you
bisexuals can't make up their minds
asians can't drive
black people steal
fags spread aids

dangerous thinking when we generalize isn't it?

that said: catholics are a little intense (and don't have the best track record), mormons are from mars, mel gibson is a fucking nutjob and i'm pretty sure that paris hilton didn't need to record an album.

[Long Duck Dong]

as much as i try to respect christians and their beliefs, I often find that there is no compromise in their eyes..... its their way only

my mother rang me, going on about how the new movement of kids for christ, was scaring people cos they were not gonna take things laying down... they were gonna stand up for their rights and my first reaction was to say, * yes and their first agenda will to be oppose the rights of others *

she told me about how the christian kids were gonna oppose abortion, and homosexuality...I just sighed and said, yeah thats right.... attack the small minority groups.... the christians are always preaching about understanding, love, and forgiveness.... yet they are amongst the first groups to attack and oppose other groups

I told my mother that she needs to realise that her holy crusade is about attacking people and trying to enforce her beliefs upon a nation that is not interested.....
in new zealand, the prostituation bill was passed that gave prostitutes a legal indentity, give them protection within the law, health support and rights.... the christians opposed this rigidly.....if the 5 years leading up to the bill being passed.... over 1000 cases of abuse, and violence against prostitues, were in the courts.... since the bill passed, about 5 years ago..... there are 7 cases in the courts..... the christians claimed it would lead to more sex crimes and rapes......the stats proved exactly the opposite

with the civil union bill, ( a state of marriage for hetero, gay, lesbian couples ) the law was changed to fix the tax loophole that allow gays and lesbians to live together but collect single person benefits... saving the county $68 million a year, it also allowed couples to declare their love for one another...... 137 couples have had a civil union in new zealand.....the christians claimed the civil union would destory the state of marriage in new zealand..... but marriage is up about 15 % and divorce is down about 7 %

in new zealand, we hold the title of the 3 rd highest kid abuse and violence rate in the world, members of our govt are passing for a total ban on smaking kids in the home..... the 3 largest groups responsible for taking kids out of homes for alledged child abuse, are christian groups......in all the major cases of child abuse, that has resulted in child death....the christian groups have been a factor in keeping the kids in the homes, where it was known the abuse was taking place
my mother played a role in the removal of my son from his mother... no history of abuse or neglect... and the child was placed in the hands of a christian foster mother.......the case worker, was my mother.......8 years later....a person showed me the file on the case....and revealed just how my christian mother had lied and manipulated in the case to fit her own agenda....

and my mother wonders why i have no respect for her

[gh05t]

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. Denis Diderot

Is that too harsh?

Sorry I've got a thing about zealots & fundamentalists of any persuasion.
Teach your kids love, compassion, facts & reason, everything else just follows.
Stories like this just scare the hell out of me that we, humanity, as a whole can still be so uneducated & unenlightened.

Peace


:soapbox:

[jedinudist]

I see where you're coming from with this, but I would argue that blowing these people off because they're obviously nut jobs is dangerous. That's how we've wound up with the theocracy that the U.S. has become. Nobody took Jay Dobson seriously when he was first getting started because we thought everybody would see what a lunatic he was & as a result focus on the family is one of the most powerful organizations in the country. As H.L. Menken once said "Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of the american public"


To use an appropriate term to express my opinion on your post....

Amen

You're right

[shameless agitator]

people that "hate" religion don't understand religion. and the people in that movie are not religious! they're fanatical, there's a difference.
dangerous thinking when we generalize isn't it?

You're quite right here Darren. I don't hate all christians, just the "religious right" which imo is niether. I do believe religion makes it too easy to manipulate people and in general is probably the single largest source of evil mankind has ever known. How many people have been murdered and/or tortured because of their religious beliefs? Let's not forget the crusades, inquisition, holocaust, witch trials & all the other holy wars history has brought us.

[12voltman59]

I want to make clear-I do not hate christians either-but I do not much care for the type of extremist types that are put forth as being the true, real and good "christians."

While they lay claim to being followers of Christ--they are hardly Christ like at all and their extreme form of Christianity actually turns more people away from God and Christ than bring them towards---like the old saying--"you can get more with honey than vinegar"

I do believe that there is more to existence than the fact that we are born, we live and we die---I think that there is more to existence than that-so I am not an atheist or an agnostic---but then again not a mindless, tell me what to believe and I will follow you sheep.

The thing I have a problem with the fundamentalist/evangelical christian movement is that they are so extremist and absolutist---and also in spite of their claim to love America and such---in my mind they are the biggest threat to our American form of democracy--I have heard some of the televangelists say that "people don't deserve what they think is freedom" arguing instead that real freedom comes from just giving everything over to God and Jesus---they don't much like the essential freedoms that we have in this country--so they are really UN and ANTI American-profoundly so---

To me--they are every bit as much of a danger to the way I want to live as is Osama Bin Laden and the rest of the extremist Islamists are--the thing is-Bin Laden and such are enemies without---the extremist fundy Christians are the enemy within and they therefore pose a far greater threat to our essential freedoms than do whole legends of Al Qaeda members....

[ScifiBiJen]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
::gasp:: HAHAHAHAHAHA

Jesus Camp featured in movie is closed. (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/4321426.html)

Because of negative reactions brought on by the release of the movie... this Crazy Town closed down. Yes, vandalism is wrong... but still, that wasn't the only deciding factor Surprise surprise: some people didn't want that going on in their area. Sorry mulletboy, it's time to go home.

[Enoll]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
::gasp:: HAHAHAHAHAHA

Jesus Camp featured in movie is closed. (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/4321426.html)


I'd nearly lost hope in America untill this post.
You guys need to keep your crazies under controll abit more. :bigrin:

[12voltman59]

That particular camp might be gone, but I am sure there are other ones like it elsewhere in the country---

[JohnnyV]

:( I have to confess that I went to one of those Christian camps in the North when I was a kid -- two summers in a row. They really aren't as bad as the film clip makes them look (though I haven't seen the full film). Yes, we would get all riled up and put on face paint and learn how to fire rifles at things, sometimes even pretending that our targets were our "enemies".... but it just didn't feel like all that effective of brainwashing. We were messing around in the woods and breaking all the rules we pretended to follow, when the adults weren't looking. We knew the whole think was silly, and at times even the priests would joke around with us, then look the other way when we broke the rules.

The most important thing I got out of "Jesus camp" when I was 11 and 12 was bonding with other kids my age and time in the wilderness to think about who I was and how I would fulfill my relationship with God. It's honestly not a bad thing, and I would have no problem sending my daughter to a Christian camp. When she came home I would just tell her that of course gay people are human beings too and non-Christians are not inferior, but I would expect her to take seriously the ideas of being close to God and helping other people, which is what it is really all about.

J

:)

[izzfan]

Just watched the YouTube video and I am shocked, I mean indoctrinating kids with fundamentalist Christianity before they have even had the chance to think for themselves - I mean one of the kids in the film said that he was 'saved' at the age of 5.... now that is disturbing. THe worst bit was when one of the kids was shown at what was probably an anti-abortion protest (the scene where one of them has covered their mouth with a piece of tape with 'life' written on it)... the kid probably isn't even old enough to fully understand what an abortion is, let alone the whole of the moral debate surrounding the issue.
I mean what is most shocking (apart from the fact that these kids are being heavily indoctrinated before they even are old enough to form their own opinions) is that statistically about 2-10% of ppl are gay/lesbian, 1-5% of people are transgender and quite a few ppl are bi ( I don't know the exact figures for this... but knowing current opinion it seems to be either 0% or 100%.... but that's a completely different debate lol) so therefore, there MUST be some LGBT kids in that camp who are going to grow up with a lot of self-loathing and internalised homophobia/biphobia/ transphobia and thanks to this indoctrination camp, their lives would be absolute hell..... I mean, it is terrible. Personally, I think there should be a minimum age limit on religion (I would personally say it should be set at 16 or 18) to allow kids to make up their own opinions so they can choose whether to follow a religion or not.

Izzfan

[LoveLion]

Ill hold any comments until I see the film, but from the trailer I have one word: scary