Bisexuality on a case-by-case basis

[BiBiologist]

Several threads on the board and many past threads have dealt with marriage and the bisexual, which have included the issues of monogamy, polyamory, biological basis of sexual orientation, the need for same-sex relationships for married bi's, and the same-sex marriage question. These same issues keep popping up because there are no easy answers, everybody's values differ a bit, and new people find the site and are eager to know about others in the same situations. Most people agree that having extra-marital affairs of any kind behind their spouse's back is cheating and is wrong. Many seem to believe outside same-sex relationships are OK if they are negotiated and communicated and all parties are in agreement, whether or not they think bisexuals have a greater need for this than heterosexuals do. Some believe bisexuals have a greater need for an extra-marital same-sex relationship than straight or gay people have for outside relationships. Others are dead set against that idea, they believe it's a deep imposition on the straight spouse, and that it lends credence to those who say bisexuals cannot maintain a monogamous relationship.

After experiencing the kind of controversy this topic has raised in previous threads, including one I started (Bisexuals are Biologically Needy*), I have come to believe that all of these contentions are right.

How can that be, you ask? I think it is because we are a continuum of people. We all acknowledge that on some level, having rated ourselves on the Kinsey Scale, but maybe we don't stop to think about what that really means. Plus, it is not a scale where everyone is rated on the same set of values and principles in any strict way, but one where we each rate ourselves based on our own feelings, experiences, values and principles. What is likely also is that our true orientations are a continuum of infinite increments rather than whole-number increments between 1 and 7 (or 0 and 6 and Kinsey originally presented the scale). Our feelings and experiences may be fluid, such that we might rate ourselves differently at different times.

When I found this site I rated myself as a 4 (equally straight and gay/lesbian). I rated myself a 4 because I have been in a straight marriage for 23 years, had one straight relationship before that, but though I have had no experiences, I am very attracted to women. A lot of people on the site rate themselves as 4s, and I have seen many posts where people say they are equally attracted to males or females, and it is the person, not the gender, that they are attracted to. I could see that I never felt that way. I am more emotionally attracted to women than men, and through my recent journey of discovery, to make a long story short, gender is important to me, and I should probably be a 5. That is a difficult admission, and is currently a difficult chasm for me to negotiate in my marriage. If, in my younger days, bisexuality was better understood and same-sex marriage had been an option, I probably would have been more comfortable with a woman. No, I know I would. I chose to marry because I felt more comfortable within conventional institutions, and I think I chose the best man for me to be married to. We share ideologies, common cultural roots, and we like the same kinds of activities. I believed I loved him when I was 23, and I did and have, as much as I was capable of for a man. I was attracted sexually to men before that feeling developed in me for women. Confusing as hell!! And now we have two children.

Getting to the point, I think that when I posted the "needy" thread, that I made assumptions about all bisexuals, based on my own situation. That was wrong, but I think others do the same. I think those married 2s, 3s, and 4s may have no problem maintaining their monogamous marriages, and don't have a great need for outside relationships. That's great, but you can't assume that’s true for all bi's. There are also some 4s out there, and the 5s and 6s, that are still bisexual but married for whatever reason. Maybe like me before they understood their sexuality, or because they enjoyed being in the mainstream, really liked who they were marrying, felt pressured by social/family traditions, wanted all the legal and emotional security, wanted to have children naturally, etc. So maybe all bi's could be monogamous if we found the right fit, but maybe there are still those who feel very divided. We're still bi, but have different feelings, and did not (and still don't) have an accepted option of same-sex marriage that might have relieved a need some of us feel to have outside relationships. We're still bi, and should be open to other's needs as a community. Each of our situations needs to be decided within ourselves, on a case-by-case basis.

I think that same-sex marriage is a huge issue for everyone, straight, bi, or gay. Can't we as a group, with all our thousands of brains, come up with a way to reach people?


*PLEASE don't add anymore posts to the "needy" thread--THANKS!

[JohnnyV]

Bi Biologist,

You have brought up a great thread and I'm glad you posed the dilemma so eloquently. I am probably the site's worst offender for going on too long in posts, so I'll *try* to be brief with my additions --

People get married for many different reasons, and I don't think that we need to marry based on a sexual blueprint inside us. If we marry for social or practical reasons, nobody can say the marriage is any less legitimate. Heck, for most of history, marriage had nothing to do with love, and love had very little to do with sex. If you felt comfortable in a marriage with a man, even if only for conventional reasons, then that motive is as compelling as your bodily desire for other women.

When I joined this site, I gave myself a Kinsey score of 3, but I've realized after prowling the internet (with wife's permission) for that final release of a male-male experience, that I'm probably more of a 2 and possibly a 1. When I'm with men, I close my eyes and imagine that I'm with a woman... and I don't feel much desire for men. I had a lot of experiences with men when I was yonger and, for many cultural and social reasons, didn't think I could attract women. The gayness faded rapidly in my late 20s as I started scoring with women. It's not that I have always been a 2, though; I think I *was* a 4 once upon a time, and have slowly been sliding lower on the scale.

Because of my past, I am wary of searching for numbers for ourselves. I think that we also change our Kinsey score over the course of our lives. If you look at Kinsey's report, for instance, you'll see that the median Kinsey score for the entire population is different at age 16 from what it is at 45.

So put simply, I think you've made all the right decisions in your life. Even though you're in a straight marriage with 2 kids, you've traded away certain sexual experiences for experiences that are valuable in their own right. Sex isn't the end all be all.

Love,
J

[canuckotter]

I think those married 2s, 3s, and 4s may have no problem maintaining their monogamous marriages, and don't have a great need for outside relationships.

My thinking is that maybe there's more than one kind of bisexual... Some people describe themselves as having one sexuality for opposite-sex partners, and a seperate sexuality for same-sex partners. Staying monogamous within one sexuality isn't easy, but isn't particularly hard; but staying monogamous on the whole actually means that they're forced to be celibate with regards to their other sexuality. A guy could have all the sex in the world with guys, to the point of being utterly sated, and yet his cravings for a woman would be completely undiminished.

There are other people who describe themselves as having one sexuality which doesn't discriminate along gender lines. Staying monogamous in that case doesn't involve any more effort than it does for a "straight" person, because they're not denying their sexuality.

I find that the people who have a hard time staying monogamous tend to be the ones describing themselves as having two distinct sexualities, whereas people who say that maintaining monogamy isn't particularly hard tend to describe themselves as having a single sexuality. It doesn't really seem to have much to do with ranking on the Kinsey scale -- I had a friend who would have rated about a 6 1/2 who was completely satisfied with an opposite-sex relationship, whereas I've met people who rate a 2 who still need same-sex pairings every once in a while, no matter how satisfied they are with opposite-sex pairings.

JohnnyV, I definitely think that our ratings change over time. When I first admitted my bisexuality, I would have rated maybe a 1 1/2. :) I've gone as high as 3, back down to 1-and-a-bit, and now I'm back to a 3. And I'm only 29! I bounce all over the place. :)

[Driver 8]

I bounce all over the place. :)
Well, yes, you're an otter.

[Meinbruder]

I will have to echo the notion that sexuality is an array on a continuum. I speak strictly from my own experience, of course; YMMV. I was raised with the usual ‘60s notion that boys liked girls, and finished high school in ’73. My worldview was narrow, looking back, and the idea of being Bi never even entered my mind; then I went to college. All of my friends were straight, none of them had any real problem with gays, and all of us were desperately chasing “tail”. Much to my regret, I resisted making passes at some of my friends in college. I even got into a fight with my twin brother’s (future) wife & in-laws with my acceptance of the gay community, I have been an outcast from his life ever since.

I had desires that girls were uncomfortable with; I buried them, I refused them, I repressed them, and I ignored them; none of the girls I dated would indulge me. I married and life began to follow the usual path, life has its challenges and desires wax and wane. When I married, our vows were self-written and did not include the usual “cleave unto one” nonsense of the Christian faith. I had no interest in straying but over time began to wonder what I had missed by repressing my desires over the years. My wife has finally begun to fulfill some of my requests and I find myself wanting so much more. At this point in time, my wife is not physically capable of satisfying my desires. My brother surprised me recently, it seems that he has had similar thoughts despite being a born again Christian.

Can a bi-sexual be monogamous and resist temptation? Yes, with a lot of determination! Now, turning fifty, the whole mid-life crises thing has caught me squarely by the “toe”. <wink> Rather like a trap I knew would be waiting for me. My best friend is gay and we keep dodging conversations about life as we now live it. His partner is less than full filling and my wife has tried to distance herself from me sexually. I am squarely in the trap and am afraid to touch the trigger. Damn it, I want him so much!

I don’t want this post to sound like a rant or a confession but you have once again struck a cord in my mind. I will agree, the acceptance of same sex marriage and full acknowledgement of poly relationships needs to be admitted into the mainstream of life!
Mike


> I think that same-sex marriage is a huge issue for everyone, straight, bi, or gay. Can't we as a group, with all our thousands > of brains, come up with a way to reach people?


*PLEASE don't add anymore posts to the "needy" thread--THANKS![/QUOTE]

[Mimi]

I find that the people who have a hard time staying monogamous tend to be the ones describing themselves as having two distinct sexualities, whereas people who say that maintaining monogamy isn't particularly hard tend to describe themselves as having a single sexuality.
canuckotter, i think you've just hit something there that i've been mulling over privately. i think i've seen the same phenomenon in that the monogamous people are usually the ones who "just like people" and the poly people are the ones who "like their women to be women" and "like their men to be men." perhaps there are exceptions out there (like there always are), but maybe this is a general trend? for example, i am monogamous and i tend to be attracted to androgynous men and women. that way i will "complement" the feminine and masculine qualities inside me. what do other people think?


When I joined this site, I gave myself a Kinsey score of 3, but I've realized after prowling the internet (with wife's permission) for that final release of a male-male experience, that I'm probably more of a 2 and possibly a 1.
this is also my own observation that sometimes people who are in an opposite-sex relationship tend to rate themselves 5/6 when they feel like they're NOT ALLOWED TO or HAVEN'T HAD THE EXPERIENCE of being with someone of the same sex. but if they somehow got the chance to explore it, like you did johnny, then they would realize that their same-sex attraction is lower than they thought. so the whole kinsey scale rating may not just be fluid over time but also fluid depending on if you're in a relationship and feel restricted in some way. it's kinda like if you like chocolate but had to give it up, you would start to like chocolate so much more obsessively than if you just gave yourself permission to have it when you want.

great discussion!

mimi :flag1:

[Long Duck Dong]

lol interestingly enuf my bisexuality doesn't actually surface until i am in a relationship.....thats when it becomes overly clear to me that my body is desiring the sexual contact over the emotional contact

being a libran...and bisexual... i do find that outside of a relationship... i appear normal and stable but in a relationship...it is like only one part of me is giving and recieving sexual and emotional contact and the other part gets moody and jealous... and thats when I really sit up and say I am bisexual.... I am two personalites in the same body that wish to both be accepted and acknowledged as equal halves of a whole... they are both part of the same personality of one part is strongly feminine and the other part is strongly masculine

growing up I was first with a male for about 3 years then with a female....and over the years....I never fully become hetero or gay as i was not able to balance fully on one side

so i have to admit i have a dim view of people that loosely use the term bisexual as their *flag*... as a lot of them may have threesomes or same sex flings.... but most of their time is spent with the opposite sex... and in those cases... their bisexuality is more of a sexual experience or adventure more than a actual case of dual sexual identities in the same body that desire contact with both sexs in order to function better

[BiBiologist]

Thanks all. Many good points here. Yes, Johnny, you were brief and to the point! Canuckotter and Mimi, the separate sexuality idea is interesting, and I guess sort of what I meant by "those who feel very divided." It brings me to another point, which is that each of us has to do our own research to find out the best way to make decisions for our own situations. There are lots of good books and articles that have been brought up in these threads, and it is great to be able to read about everyone else's thoughts and opinions in these threads to better define your own. And it doesn't hurt to talk to a counselor or other professional. So, for a new analogy--it's kind of like getting a prescription for glasses. In the beginning, you might not even be sure what good vision should look like. There is no one instrument that an optometrist can use to look in your eyes and determine your prescription. You look through lots of lenses--"does this look better, or this?"--to determine what will give you the best vision. And, there is no one pair of glasses that fits all. You can't go through life wearing glasses prescribed for someone else (or glasses with only one lens?), and your prescription can change over the years. I won't even go into the choosing of fashionable frames! Oh, and those of us who wear contacts because we don't want to be called "four eyes." We each have to find our own best prescription, and we shouldn't judge others choices, because we can't see through their eyes.

[Mimi]

so i have to admit i have a dim view of people that loosely use the term bisexual as their *flag*... as a lot of them may have threesomes or same sex flings.... but most of their time is spent with the opposite sex... and in those cases... their bisexuality is more of a sexual experience or adventure more than a actual case of dual sexual identities in the same body that desire contact with both sexs in order to function better
Well, there are certainly some bisexual-identified people who are "just experimenting." I have a list here of different types of bisexuality that I've used in workshops. These are just some guidelines that a couple researchers came up with, bi-theway, not hard and fast rules.

Types of Bisexuality

1. Alternating bisexuals (AKA sequential or serial monogamist): Has relationships with one partner one at a time of either gender in no specific pattern. For example, may have a relationship with a man, and then after that relationship ends, may have a female partner for a subsequent relationship, and then may have a male or female partner next.

2. Circumstantial bisexuals (AKA secondary bisexuals): Primarily heterosexual, but will choose same sex partners only in situations where they have no access to other-sex partners, such as when in jail, in the military, or in a gender-segregated school.

3. Concurrent relationship bisexuals: Have primary relationship with one gender only but have other casual or secondary relationships with people of another gender at the same time.

4. Emotional bisexuals: Have intimate emotional relationships with both men and women, but only have sexual relationships with one gender.

5. Integrated bisexuals: Have more than one primary relationship at the same time, one with a man and one with a woman. May also be called polyamorous.

6. Exploratory bisexuals (AKA experimental bisexuals): Either straight or gay/lesbian, but have sex with another gender just to satisfy curiosity or "see what it's like."

7. Hedonistic bisexuals: Primarily straight or gay/lesbian but will sometimes have sex with another gender primarily for fun or purely sexual satisfaction.

8. Recreational bisexuals: Primarily heterosexual but engage in gay or lesbian sex only when under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol.

9. Latent bisexuals: Completely straight or gay lesbian in behavior but have strong desire for sex with another gender, but have never acted on it.

10. Latin bisexuals: In the male-male sexual act, the dominant man (“top”) is considered straight and the submissive man (“bottom”) is considered gay.

11. Ritual bisexuality: Socially prescribed for all or certain members of a society.

12. Married bisexuals: A bisexual member of a married pair who may practice monogamy, polyamory, or polyfidelity.

13. Motivational bisexuals: Straight women who have sex with other women only because a male partner insists on it to titillate him.

14. Transitional bisexuals: Temporarily identify as bisexual while in the process of moving from being straight to being gay or lesbian, or going from being gay or lesbian to being heterosexual.

Mimi :flag1:

[BiBiologist]

Well, there are certainly some bisexual-identified people who are "just experimenting." I have a list here of different types of bisexuality that I've used in workshops. These are just some guidelines that a couple researchers came up with, bi-theway, not hard and fast rules.
:

Just wondering, who are the couple of researchers and what was their purpose in coming up with these categories? Seems they are categories looked at from the outside, i.e., observed behavior, and they seem a bit arbitrary and overlapping. I'd like to see a lot more explanation of each category, as to whether the actual (Kinsey-like) orientations have been considered. Several of the categories, Transitional Bisexual, for instance, give me a nagging feeling that bisexuality as an internal orientation is again being discounted. The observed behavior may appear transitional, so they make the assumption that the base orientation is either straight or gay.

[Lisa (va)]

Not sure who the researchers are, but that's fine. But it goes to show that being bisexual can mean different things to different people ( I myself most closely fit category 1 ). Instead of case-by-case maybe it should be individual-by-individual

Lisa

hugs n kisses

[moongirl]

Well I enjoyed reading all the categories (love lists!) and can now even order my own experience by them: I was a latent bi, then a concurrent bi, now I may end up being an alternating bi or am I iactually a transitional bi without realising it? What about the non-active bi? (ie, not currently getting any!). Shows how much we evolve in our sexual identity thru our lives.

moongirl

[BiBiologist]

Lisa,
By case-by-case I mean individual-by-individual. Maybe we should say human-by-human. The list sort of seems like labeling to me, which lots of people have railed against in these threads.
sam

[Sparks]

The ebb and flow of life, and our sexuality. As humans we grow day by day. It's in our nature. I've been a 1 and gone as high as a 5, and now I'm a 3, and very comfortable with that. When we partner, or mate, with another person it's about sharing, regardless of gender. :2cents:

[Mimi]

The list sort of seems like labeling to me, which lots of people have railed against in these threads.

i think the act of "labeling" can be good and bad. labeling can actually be very empowering -- like people who declare their "chicano pride" or say "we're here, we're queer, now deal with it." labeling can also help people feel relieved because there's a name to what they are going through. it can also mean that there are other people who are going through it and it can help you find others -- how else will bis find each other if we don't "label ourselves" in some mutually understandable way? i think it depends on who is doing the labeling and what the intention is. if a bi-phobic person tried to demean or dismiss me with a mean label (like "fence-sitter" or "slut"), then that is not okay. but the researchers who created the list are bisexual themselves (fritz klein and ronald fox), so i have faith that they had good intentions.

also, the list is indeed focused on bisexual behavior, and not necessarily bisexual attractions, so it is not a "perfect" way of defining bisexuality. but at least it is a step. when i've handed this list out at workshops it has really gotten people to think about their sexuality more and sometimes it helps nudge people who have been afraid to accept their bisexuality. so it is only one way out of many ways to help strengthen individuals and to make bisexuality more visible in the general society.

mimi :flag1:

[DÆMØN]

" I have a list here of different types of bisexuality that I've used in workshops. These are just some guidelines that a couple researchers came up with, bi-theway, not hard and fast rules."

1. Alternating bisexuals
2. Circumstantial bisexuals
3. Concurrent relationship bisexuals
4. Emotional bisexuals
5. Integrated bisexuals
6. Exploratory bisexuals
7. Hedonistic bisexuals
8. Recreational bisexuals
9. Latent bisexuals
10. Latin bisexuals
11. Ritual bisexuality
12. Married bisexuals
13. Motivational bisexuals
14. Transitional bisexuals
Mimi :flag1:

Mimi, you have hit the nail right on the head and HARD! This is exactly what I've been thinking about the past whiles, " bi sexual subcultures ". I think partially because of the approaching 9th ICB , that I've been thinking about bisexuality itself as a lifestyle choice more than I normally do. Generally I don't even question bisexuality, life is too short to put silly limitations on oneself the way mainstream cluture would have us do. However, I always keep that door to exploring other bisexual possiblities wide open.

[BiBiologist]

i think the act of "labeling" can be good and bad. labeling can actually be very empowering -- like people who declare their "chicano pride" or say "we're here, we're queer, now deal with it." labeling can also help people feel relieved because there's a name to what they are going through. it can also mean that there are other people who are going through it and it can help you find others -- how else will bis find each other if we don't "label ourselves" in some mutually understandable way? i think it depends on who is doing the labeling and what the intention is. if a bi-phobic person tried to demean or dismiss me with a mean label (like "fence-sitter" or "slut"), then that is not okay. but the researchers who created the list are bisexual themselves (fritz klein and ronald fox), so i have faith that they had good intentions.

also, the list is indeed focused on bisexual behavior, and not necessarily bisexual attractions, so it is not a "perfect" way of defining bisexuality. but at least it is a step. when i've handed this list out at workshops it has really gotten people to think about their sexuality more and sometimes it helps nudge people who have been afraid to accept their bisexuality. so it is only one way out of many ways to help strengthen individuals and to make bisexuality more visible in the general society.

mimi :flag1:

Yes, I agree about the labeling. Biologists tend to be major labelers! (And also very curious and questioning of the sources and purposes of research--no offense was intended!) I just would like to see the behavioral component come into consideration of the categories, if you go back to being bi defined as being able to be attracted to members of either sex. For instance, I'm guessing that there would be lots of women in the "motivational bisexual" category who would not self-identify as bi, and their sexual activity with women is not really voluntary. It might be more upsetting/confusing for them to see a category on a list that considers them as bisexuals. My own opinion would be that they are not, and if they are actually attracted to other women, they would fit into another category. I'm sure you discuss this at your workshops, but with only the list and short definitions to go on, I had to ask more about it.

I really like these pamphlets from the Bisexual Resource Center in Boston, MA (www.biresource.org ). One good point they make related to this thread is, whether a bisexual is in a long-term monogamous relationship or an open marriage that allows for relationships with same-sex partners:

"It is important to have the freedom to choose the type of sexual and affectional relationships that are right for the people involved, whatever their sexual orientation."
Thanks,
sam

[BiBiologist]

Also, I just read this by mimi on the "am i bi" thread and I like this alot better than the category list! Most everybody else posting to that thread also liked it:


there are many different types of bisexuals:

you like men AND women sexually AND romantically
you like men sexually only; you like women sexually and romantically
you like women sexually only; you like men sexually and romantically


mimi :flag1:

[alexbtn20]

Originally posted by BiBiologist.
A lot of people on the site rate themselves as 4s, and I have seen many posts where people say they are equally attracted to males or females, and it is the person, not the gender, that they are attracted to. I could see that I never felt that way. I am more emotionally attracted to women than men, and through my recent journey of discovery, to make a long story short, gender is important to me, and I should probably be a 5.

Hi everyone, thought I'd write my first post here! I find I relate to this quote quite well. Having just joined this site, I've also noticed that alot of people rate themselves as 4s (although I've also noticed alot of 2s and 3s!). However, I find that my desires towards women are not the same as the ones I feel for men. I've also noticed Mimi's post on another thread which explains how some bi people can experience a strong romantic AND sexual attraction towards one gender, whereas with the other gender it is basically a sexual attraction only. I've noticed a fair few people on here (say in long-term relationships or marriages) who are strongly in love with their opposite sex partners and who happen to only have sexual feelings for the same sex (not romantic). So I'm just curious to know which people on here feel the reverse (for example they generally tend to favour long-term romantic relationships with the same sex, but continue to experience sexual urges towards the opposite sex). Although currently single, I can relate to this as I have developed a rather potent bi-curiousity towards women and yet I seem to prefer men romantically.

Alex