Prosecutor: Bias charges may come in webcast of sexual encounter

[slipnslide]

I was hoping someone else would be the first to post an article about the Rutgers student. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/30/new.jersey.student.suicide/)

That this kid resorted to suicide is beyond words. It's just so terribly terribly sad - all because he liked dudes and someone else couldn't respect his right to privacy.

[Long Duck Dong]

mmmmm another homophobic crime ???? snorts......

yes I am jaded, cos if it happens against a gay person, its * shock, horror * a homophobic crime, if its against a trans its * trans phobic * if its against a lesbian, its les phobic.... but if its against a celeb... its a sex tape......

sorry, but just cos its a gay guy, doesn't make the crime any worse than if it was against a gay, trans, les or straight person to me.... its still a invasion of personal privacy, regardless of the sexuality..... I treat everybody with the same laws and rules, equally

now, the hard part is proving that the suicide is a direct result of the unauthorised invasion of privacy...... and the only person that can answer that and exactly why they jumped, is the one person that can not speak any more.... Tyler Clementi
now if i am to look at the comments that have been posted on the just4boys site ( based on the article ) there was strong, positive and correct action taken over the matter... but no mention that clementi knew that the video was posted online.... and that is the key point, ... did he take his own live because of that, or is there other factors involved......

all that aside, the students that breached clementi's privacy, should be subject to the the law, regardless of the sexuality of anybody involved.... they broke the law and should be judged accordingly.......

but this will go down as another homophobic, anti gay crime..... and reinforce the idea that somehow any crimes against a person of a alternative sexuality are some how more hideous and vile than the same crime against a hetero person......

its a crime that may have directly or indirectly resulted in the loss of a life.... and thats all I see,..... let them be judged accordingly without bias

[Realist]

I saw that on the news tonight...makes me sick!

I feel so sorry for him, too.

And, for his parents and loved ones.

I hope they can make an example out of those two who video taped him!

[NotLostJustWandering]

mmmmm another homophobic crime ???? snorts......

yes I am jaded, cos if it happens against a gay person, its * shock, horror * a homophobic crime, if its against a trans its * trans phobic * if its against a lesbian, its les phobic.... but if its against a celeb... its a sex tape......

sorry, but just cos its a gay guy, doesn't make the crime any worse than if it was against a gay, trans, les or straight person to me.... its still a invasion of personal privacy, regardless of the sexuality..... I treat everybody with the same laws and rules, equally

Yeah, but the consequences of the invasion of privacy are more serious for queer people; there is an element of "outing" which can be devastating. If this had happened to a young unmarried het couple, sure the issue of privacy would be the same, but unless they had very traditional parents, it's hard to imagine that they would have suffered as much as a closeted gay/bi man being outed against his will on top of everything else.



now, the hard part is proving that the suicide is a direct result of the unauthorised invasion of privacy......

Nope. The timing is evidence enough. Sure, he may have already been depressed, having suicidal thoughts, whatever, but clearly this pushed him over the edge.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Furthermore, if the kid was depressive in the first place, you would think his roommate would have been aware of that, and had he been a decent human being, would have taken that into consideration before deciding to do this to him.

[Long Duck Dong]

Yeah, but the consequences of the invasion of privacy are more serious for queer people; there is an element of "outing" which can be devastating. If this had happened to a young unmarried het couple, sure the issue of privacy would be the same, but unless they had very traditional parents, it's hard to imagine that they would have suffered as much as a closeted gay/bi man being outed against his will on top of everything else.



Nope. The timing is evidence enough. Sure, he may have already been depressed, having suicidal thoughts, whatever, but clearly this pushed him over the edge.

ok..... so if your gay / bi.... its a more serious crime...... bullshit.... tell that to the straight females killed in honour killings for the crime of talking to a boy.....

invasion of privacy is dangerous, not cos of sexuality but the risks it carries to the individual being exposed.....

and timing is timing.... and coincidental... hence they have not charged the people with a serious crime such as involuntary manslaughter is going to be hard to prove.......
yes based around the evidence, it could be a contributing factor in the persons suicide..... but proving that it resulted in his suicide and death, will be a hard battle

[tenni]

With regards to this invasion of privacy and many of the sex tapes of celebs are concerned there is one glaring difference. In this case, it is an invasion of privacy because the roomie set it up and broadcast it on the internet twice without the dead man's awareness. In the case of many celebs, the celebs themselves have created their own sex tapes. The celebs were aware that the tapes were being made or the photographs. Celebs have filed and stopped the release of tapes/photos or sued to get the tapes back.

In another case, a woman sportscaster had her privacy invaded when someone took a photo of her in her underwear by shooting the photo through a hotel keyhole. This was done without her awareness and in this manner similar to what happened to the dead man. Her sexuality was not made public and in fact she was not naked completely. She was very embarassed but continued. I can see how the invasion of privacy can feel almost like being violated. I'm not certain but after the image was posted on the net, I believe that the photographer was charged.

The room mate did this not just once but twice before the young man killed himself. The young man was aware that this had been done. He sought help from the university and posted comments on a site. He posted a good bye on his Facebook page and that was his "suicide note". On a side note, it is interesting that almost everything connected to his plight and suicide was done on the internet.

[12voltman59]

LDD--the use of the hate crimes laws in this case--both in applying the state and federal laws is not an automatic situation---there has to be certain criteria that have to be proven in order for the hate crimes provision to be applied-and it is only an "enhancement" to increase the amount of prison sentence that the offenders can possibly receive.

The law requires that this victim was targeted because of his homosexuality--not that it was simply a prank or something of this nature. It does not automatically apply just because he was gay--it would apply only if as part of the motivation of harassing the victim was because he is gay--and as I said--there are clearly specified legal criteria that the facts indicate are present in this case that must be met in order for the hate crimes enhancements to apply. It is not an automatic deal.

To show what I mean by the legal term of "enhancements" in relation to other crimes that prosecutors can use when charging crimes--in one case-say this was a drug sales case--someone sells some drugs in an area away from a school----then its simply a drug sales charge--but if the drug sale transaction takes place near a school, park or other place as specified in the statutes--places where children might be found--then the prosecutors can charge the "enhancement" charges of having sold drugs in such a zone. This results in the defendants of the crime gettting more charges and greater possible prison sentences.

Another example of enhancement charges---a robbery takes place---in the first case--the robber just threatens his victim with his fists--its a simple robbery--but in the next case--the robber uses a gun--then the prosecutors can charge "the perp" with use of weapons enhancement charges. One again--there are more charges with more serious possible prison sentences.

The growth in the number of such enhancement charges is a trend that has been taking place in American criminal law at both the state and federal levels over the course of the past few decades at least and such is the case with hate crimes charges--it is not really something special--just simply something that is well within the trend of the American legal justice system to be doing.

If it does come out, through the investigation that is being conducted by New Jersey and/or federal criminal investigators that indeed, the mens rea element of motivation of the suspects in this situation is that they targeted this young man because of his homosexuality--then I say--the prosecutors are well within their rights--neah-it is they duty to fully prosecute the defendants in this case with everything in their arsenal that is available for them to use.

Another area of the much increased enhancement charges have come in the area of terrorism---I doubt that no one would get pissed that prosecutors charge those who commit terrorist acts with tougher charges---it is no different with using "hate crime" enhancements.

The only way you can be reasonably against hate crime enhancements is to be against enhancements of all sorts of categories that have been developing in the past few decades----but the fact is--these "enhancement" charges have grown in all areas, they will continue to grow---they are here, they are not going away--so get used to it.

In this case-under New Jersey law--if it is made clear that this case falls under the hate crimes laws of that state--the prison sentences can be doubled.

[NotLostJustWandering]

ok..... so if your gay / bi.... its a more serious crime...... bullshit.... tell that to the straight females killed in honour killings for the crime of talking to a boy.....

Well, I thought this point was irrelevant to the case at hand, but I had a look at the map section of the Fox News web site, and I stand corrected.


http://dahabmassage.com/pers/Jerseymap.jpg

[tenni]

NotLostJustWandering

Kinda funny but you may need to add Ontario,Canada as we have had Honour Killings here. There are not a lot but they have happened.

'm suspect that the number of young people killing themselves for being bullied for being gay may be more than Honour Killings though. The suicides usually don't get press as much. Ellen Degenerous made a rather emotional comment about this suicide. She mentioned that several young people killed themself in several parts of the US in September. She asked that this bullying be stopped.

[NotLostJustWandering]

NotLostJustWandering

Kinda funny but you may need to add Ontario,Canada as we have had Honour Killings here. There are not a lot but they have happened.

I'm not saying they never happen in the US, either, but it's about numbers. For the vast majority of young gay people in the US, getting "outed" is a serious issue fraught with danger. For the vast majority of young hetero people in the Northern USA, there is no such issue. Getting in trouble with your parents for having had hetero pre-marital sex is something that you never hear about in the States outside of backwater Bible Belt boonies, and the mainstream of society has no problem with it, in fact assumes people have hetero sex before they get married. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is something people may remain closeted about in their adulthood, and face hatred when they do come out. To dismiss the "outing" issue in this case, and imply that gays are getting special treatment before the law is absurd.

And yes, if the teen had been a girl from a family of Afghani immigrants and she had gotten killed by her parents over it, yes indeed the authorities would take the case just as seriously as they are taking this one, and they would be exploring the hate-crime aspect of it.

And as a consequence of their pursuing the hate-crime angle, there would be morons bitching about how the Muslims are seeking special treatment under the law. But at least that would not be surprising. I find it very weird that it seems necessary to explain really basic things about homophobia on a site about bisexuality.

[tenni]

[QUOTE=NotLostJustWandering;183968]

I wonder if we are falling prey to one of LDD's troll tricks or maybe it is his inability to focus his mind on the topic. He frequently attempts to derail the thread topic by throwing in "what if's".

I hope that posters can ignore the temptation to turn this thread away from the dangerous but increasingly common bullying and using the internet sometimes to the point of having the victim kill themself. In this case, the invasion of privacy issue is horribly sad.

[Long Duck Dong]

I simply look at the facts...... and I lack the emotional range of normal people
so my posts and responses are not emotional.....

I am going to derail the thread a bit to explain something

the mosgue thread, not lost.... when you posted in there, a few people went after you cos you spoke about muslim ways and Islamic ways, and got accusing of saying what you were cos of your connection to islamic / Muslim things....

what I saw, was not lost, who is in egypt and knows Muslim / Islamic ways, speaking as a person in Egypt about muslim / Islamic ways .... yet most of the american posters were speaking emotionally about the emotional effects and impact of 9 /11

now while I am bisexual ( actually pansexual ), I do not get tear eyed and emotional cos omg its a gay / bi person that suffered.....
I think for fucks sake, its another person that has suffered, that is dealing with a number of issues, including being gay / bi

statistically, more heteros suffer abuse, bullying, harassment and ill treatment, than the LGBT.... yet they seem to not matter, if they are not LGBT cos being LGBT gets a more emotional reaction than being any sexuality.....

hence we have anti bullying groups that are anti any bullying, and then we have LGBT groups that react to any LGBT person being bullies and ignore the rest.....

I have the stance that no person at all, deserves to be harassed or bullied etc.... despite the reason, but I am realistic in the fact that it can and will happen......

so when presented with a case, i break it down into pidgeon holes and legal aspects, while others break it down into emotional aspects, apply their opinions to it.....
opinions are not laws, and do not stand up in court....... and nor do emotions

so I see no difference between a gay / bi person and a straight person being bullied, I see a difference in the reasoning...... but I see a number of deaths and issues on all fronts.....

in the thread I see people play the sexuality card, cos there is sexuality involved...... yet in identical cases, there is no sexuality card played.....
and the current charges laid, reflect that stance.....

now while it can be argued that the online posting of gay sexual behievour led to the persons death, its unproven, its most likely a factor, I will not deny that, but any lawyer will say prove it, do not just say it

the posting of online pornographic videos can humiliate a person and out them but as we know, people already knew he was gay, so outing him would conform what people already knew.....
but lets go to things like facebook and other sites that future employers would view and use... and imagine a future employer coming across that video and enjoying it, or hating it, and then the person comes into their place for a job.....

that is the key points I see..... its not the outing of the person as many people are known to be LGBT and never conforming it...... but the effect of a total humiliation of a public viewing of you in a intimate manner can screw up your future, and be soul destroying......

and that is why we have cases of straight people posting sex videos and pics of their ex partners..... cos its not outing them.... its a complete and utter invasion of privacy and humiliation that can have far reaching effects, regardless of sexuality

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD--the use of the hate crimes laws in this case--both in applying the state and federal laws is not an automatic situation---there has to be certain criteria that have to be proven in order for the hate crimes provision to be applied-and it is only an "enhancement" to increase the amount of prison sentence that the offenders can possibly receive.

The law requires that this victim was targeted because of his homosexuality--not that it was simply a prank or something of this nature. It does not automatically apply just because he was gay--it would apply only if as part of the motivation of harassing the victim was because he is gay--and as I said--there are clearly specified legal criteria that the facts indicate are present in this case that must be met in order for the hate crimes enhancements to apply. It is not an automatic deal.

To show what I mean by the legal term of "enhancements" in relation to other crimes that prosecutors can use when charging crimes--in one case-say this was a drug sales case--someone sells some drugs in an area away from a school----then its simply a drug sales charge--but if the drug sale transaction takes place near a school, park or other place as specified in the statutes--places where children might be found--then the prosecutors can charge the "enhancement" charges of having sold drugs in such a zone. This results in the defendants of the crime gettting more charges and greater possible prison sentences.

Another example of enhancement charges---a robbery takes place---in the first case--the robber just threatens his victim with his fists--its a simple robbery--but in the next case--the robber uses a gun--then the prosecutors can charge "the perp" with use of weapons enhancement charges. One again--there are more charges with more serious possible prison sentences.

The growth in the number of such enhancement charges is a trend that has been taking place in American criminal law at both the state and federal levels over the course of the past few decades at least and such is the case with hate crimes charges--it is not really something special--just simply something that is well within the trend of the American legal justice system to be doing.

If it does come out, through the investigation that is being conducted by New Jersey and/or federal criminal investigators that indeed, the mens rea element of motivation of the suspects in this situation is that they targeted this young man because of his homosexuality--then I say--the prosecutors are well within their rights--neah-it is they duty to fully prosecute the defendants in this case with everything in their arsenal that is available for them to use.

Another area of the much increased enhancement charges have come in the area of terrorism---I doubt that no one would get pissed that prosecutors charge those who commit terrorist acts with tougher charges---it is no different with using "hate crime" enhancements.

The only way you can be reasonably against hate crime enhancements is to be against enhancements of all sorts of categories that have been developing in the past few decades----but the fact is--these "enhancement" charges have grown in all areas, they will continue to grow---they are here, they are not going away--so get used to it.

In this case-under New Jersey law--if it is made clear that this case falls under the hate crimes laws of that state--the prison sentences can be doubled.

12volt, correct me if I am wrong.....

to my understanding a hate crime is a act done against a person that is motivated by reason of sexuality, race, etc etc etc....

a person that is a black supremacist that targets a white male as the target from a crime on the basis that the target is white and male..... is equal to a crime against a person that is gay.......

now using the crime of a beating that results in the death of both targets, I understand that both crimes carry a equal charge and penalty..... and that the basis for hate crime laws, are so a increased penalty can be added, on the basis of the reasoning for the crime, and the nature of the offense.....as its a premeditated crime against a specific type of person......

and I also understand that hate crimes laws are there across the board, to be used in any case that they apply to, and not group specific.....
by group specific, I am talking about crimes against blacks and gays are hate crimes, crimes against whites and heteros are not hate crimes

I am the type of person that sees crime as crime.... I do not see a crime against a gay man as more vile than a crime against a hetero man.....
as the sexuality is a aspect of the person, and the crime is against a human being...... and so should be judged as a crime on a human being, not judged according to if they are hetero or gay.....